Abolition Of Slavery And Of The Trade Itself.

A place for some light-hearted chat.
User avatar
Flaneur
Posts: 2026
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:37 pm
Location: Hope
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Abolition Of Slavery And Of The Trade Itself.

Post by Flaneur »

He got off to a bad start for me:

'Worse, however, was the claim that British taxpayers helped “buy freedom for slaves”. The government certainly shelled out £20m (about £16bn today) in 1833.

'Not to free slaves but to line the pockets of 46,000 British slave owners as “recompense” for losing their “property”. Having grown rich on the profits of an obscene trade, slave owners grew richer still from its ending.'

Those two items went hand-in-hand, but that writer is accepting only one side of it. Our society was based on a wicked trade. In order to end it, we all paid, slaves were freed and slave-owners benefited.
Same old nonsense.

ivan_tom3
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:10 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Abolition Of Slavery And Of The Trade Itself.

Post by ivan_tom3 »

Hexenbeest an excellent post well done why do people have to pull a well considered post apart.
Part of the reason that the slave trade died out eg the purchase and sale of PEOPLE just like you and me was because there were no people in Africa.
The continent was plundered from east and west an when the slavers met in the middle it became unprofitable.
This fits in with what was said in the article when the movement started to compensate the evil people who ran the trade.
The result of the slave trade was that the African continent was left to rot in desolation, this can be seen by the population figures. By as late as the 90s over 70% of the population were under 30 and life expectancy is now only to the age of 50.
No wonder people fled to find a life and income from other parts of the world.
The population of Africa was 177 million in 1950, and it grew 7.6 times to more than 1.341 billion in 2020.[3]
When you consider that Africa is the size of 5 continents the population even in 1950 was miniscule
So please have some sympathy with people from Africa and certainly do not deride efforts to bring to an end the glorification of the people who inflicted such injustice on millions of people
Period Life expectancy in Years
1950–1955 37.46
1955–1960 39.95
1960–1965 42.32
1965–1970 44.42
1970–1975 46.51
1975–1980 48.66
1980–1985 50.45
1985–1990 51.72
1990–1995 51.71
1995–2000 52.33
2000–2005 53.67
2005–2010 56.97
2010–2015 60.23

User avatar
Flaneur
Posts: 2026
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:37 pm
Location: Hope
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Abolition Of Slavery And Of The Trade Itself.

Post by Flaneur »

ivan_tom3 wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:31 pm
Hexenbeest an excellent post well done why do people have to pull a well considered post apart.
Hexenbeest's post was unexceptionable; the twitterstream he quoted was partial and tendentious. No-one's interest is served by material which is one-sided: that's the sort of nonsense that gets the Trumps and the Cummings-Johnsons elected.

Remember, it was almost exclusively African people who sold other African people into slavery!
Same old nonsense.

ivan_tom3
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:10 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Abolition Of Slavery And Of The Trade Itself.

Post by ivan_tom3 »

Well Flaneur does it matter what the source or are you inferring that the facts are incorrect.
What make it an exceptional post is the fact that someone has gone to the trouble of posting it.
And as to blame AFRICANS for exploiting other Africans is plain stupid.
Without the slave trader requiring slaves the activity would not have thrived.
But to blame the slave trade on the very people who were exploited is naïve to say the least.
That is like saying the Nazi who used slave labour to build the structures throughout Europe were not guilty because they used workers from those countries, and the real criminals were the people who cooperated. Well they were dealt with after the war except for those with money and influence, look at the case of the IOC who elected Juan Antonio Samaranch a known Franco supporter with a doubtful history

Ally

Re: Abolition Of Slavery And Of The Trade Itself.

Post by Ally »

Remember, it was almost exclusively African people who sold other African people into slavery!
I'm no sure what the point of that sentence is. I trust it's no meant as some kind of mitigation for the non-Africans who bought them or a suggestion that Africa has a collective culpability.

User avatar
Flaneur
Posts: 2026
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:37 pm
Location: Hope
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Abolition Of Slavery And Of The Trade Itself.

Post by Flaneur »

Ally wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:56 pm
Remember, it was almost exclusively African people who sold other African people into slavery!
I'm no sure what the point of that sentence is. I trust it's no meant as some kind of mitigation for the non-Africans who bought them or a suggestion that Africa has a collective culpability.
No, it was to provide clarification because of assertions like
ivan_tom3 wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:31 pm
Part of the reason that the slave trade died out ... was because there were no people in Africa.
The continent was plundered from east and west an when the slavers met in the middle it became unprofitable.
But - likewise - does that mean you don't think the British had any sort of collective culpability for slavery? (I think I'd agree.)

The plundering was done initially by African people. It's not to apportion blame but to provide clarity in a debate where some people get all worked up.
ivan_tom3 wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:31 pm

So please have some sympathy with people from Africa and certainly do not deride efforts to bring to an end the glorification of the people who inflicted such injustice on millions of people
ivan_tom3, maybe you could explain where you see derision for the "efforts to bring to an end the glorification of the people" in anything I have written (as opposed to disappointment and criticism of sloppy and tendentious writing).

Your point about Nazism doesn't make sense (unless I have misunderstood), because we quite rightly prosecute prison guards from that regime in the same way that we prosecuted those higher-up. I didn't know that about the IOC, but one thing we'd probably agree on is the corruption endemic in the Olympic organising committees!
Same old nonsense.

Hal
Posts: 1462
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:38 am
Has thanked: 97 times
Been thanked: 384 times

Re: Abolition Of Slavery And Of The Trade Itself.

Post by Hal »

Ally wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:56 pm
Remember, it was almost exclusively African people who sold other African people into slavery!
I'm no sure what the point of that sentence is. I trust it's no meant as some kind of mitigation for the non-Africans who bought them or a suggestion that Africa has a collective culpability.
I think what is being said is that it was not just the traders at fault. They did not go into Africa and drag out potential slaves - maybe a few, yes - but it was in the main powerful Africans who rounded up their own for the traders for reward.

It is no different today. Many people pretend that the corruption in Africa is not their problem. But we all stand around and watch the corruption in the continent lining the pockets of a few whilst their charges live in poverty. Hell they might as well sell them as many would think life as a slave in a first world country is far better than in a rancid slum a stones through from where their masters live and drive in style.

I think the first post actually said it all and worth a read. We should not forget the past. Whitewashing it out does not help anyone. Certainly do not re-erect Colston's staue, but maybe create a staue of slaves, maybe following the staue to Ira Hayes. Maybe even get Banksy to create something - old and new Bristol...

The argument always comes around to Hitler. Well, take a long weekend holiday to Nuremburg and take the bus out to the Party Rally Grounds for a day. A very powerful place to reflect why and how Nazism grew. Well constructed and documented, it is a place dedicated to Hitler where every child in Germany is encouraged to visit lest they forget.

Hexenbeest
Posts: 251
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:14 pm
Has thanked: 444 times
Been thanked: 139 times

Re: Abolition Of Slavery And Of The Trade Itself.

Post by Hexenbeest »

Flaneur wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:26 pm
He got off to a bad start for me:
The writer is a she. I thought it was obvious going by her photo at the top of the piece.

Hexenbeest is also a she!

Here's the link to the writer's actual tweet. You can put your counter argument directly to her:
We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form.
William Ralph Inge

Le Démerdeur
Posts: 11697
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:22 pm
Location: Picardie and occasionally Sussex
Has thanked: 2103 times
Been thanked: 1627 times

Re: Abolition Of Slavery And Of The Trade Itself.

Post by Le Démerdeur »

Hal wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:33 pm

The argument always comes around to Hitler.
Thats Ally fault for bringing up Goodwins law (which I had to look up).

He wasn't wrong.

Ally

Re: Abolition Of Slavery And Of The Trade Itself.

Post by Ally »

I don't agree Britain had a collective culpability either. Mill owners, mine owners, land owners etc., owned their respective workforces. It would be a slight on African slaves to say that their predicament was as bad, but from the mill workers or miners perspective at the time and then to blame them for slavery?
I get the thing about powerful Africans Hal
That doesn't absolve Europeans.
I don't believe we need statues of the inglorious to the remind us of an inglorious past. Places like Auschwitz, Oradour sure Glane and maybe even the Nazi rally grounds serve a good purpose in ensuring we never forget. Certainly in Britain, a more reflective version of our history taught in schools would fulfill the same purpose.

Post Reply