Would you fly on a Boeing 737 Max 8 ?

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rabbit
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Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 Max 8 ?

Post by rabbit » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:16 am

Plog wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:37 am
Hal wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:21 am
Which throws open the question of where the operator fares in all of this. Boeing tweak their aircraft towards perfection, computers take over more and more. Is there time to fully train the operators, indeed is it even possible to train them thoroughly with technology leaping ahead?

I am interested in the behind the scenes talk of traditional 737 flight crew given minimal type rating for the Max that maybe - and I emphasise 'maybe'- not having sufficient guidance on the intricate changes to the aircraft, and again maybe, because ' there are sufficient back up systems to ensure safety'. Certainly two unfortunate LionAir pilots sounds as if they fell into this category and possibly another two the other day.
As I guess you know from your previous posts in aviation cost is everything... tickets have to be cheap so that means airlines don't want crews "offline" for weeks doing training, being paid but not flying passengers around.

Type change courses can be (brutally) short these days, the pre-simulator technical groundschool phase is no longer weeks and weeks in the classroom, perhaps being taught by engineers via "chalk and talk", it's now more likely to be maybe 5-10 days maximum computer based self teach modules plus exams. If you don't need to know how something works you don't get told it, sometimes all you get told about a particular system is what it does, not how.. and where the on/off switch is. Having been brought up the old school way it is not something that sits well with me..

"Differences" courses between variants as short/minimalistic as possible ( sometimes it can just a small book, a video or two, an exam and off you go..).

As for 737 specifically it has never been "my aisle" at all but rumour ;) has it MCAS was considered as being "invisible" to the crew - so much that the Lionair crews had zero documentation and zero training on it before that accident.
"As I guess you know from your previous posts in aviation cost is everything... tickets have to be cheap so that means airlines don't want crews "offline" for weeks doing training, being paid but not flying passengers around."


Sure costs are important but I would argue that safety is more important

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Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 Max 8 ?

Post by DominicBest » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:17 am

You wouldn’t want to be on this one.

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Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 Max 8 ?

Post by Plog » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:46 am

rabbit wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:16 am
Sure costs are important but I would argue that safety is more important

No need to argue because you re preaching to the choir...however these days the data shows the vast majority of people's number one priority when it comes to booking flights is the price (there used to whole threads running on forums like this about how and when to book £1 fare to/from France..).

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Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 Max 8 ?

Post by rabbit » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:54 am

Just read an article in The Times on the subject of is technology making aircraft become too complex? A US 737 pilot described the Max 8 as "like putting a computer screen on an ox-cart"

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Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 Max 8 ?

Post by Hal » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:45 am

Some years ago, before the flight deck doors are fortified and locked, I had a chance to go onto the flight deck en route India for a holiday. It was a BA aircraft with an array of screens so probably an A3xx. The captain was my age and remebered with a smile flying with VORs as a norm. The f/o was in his thirties I guess. I remember asking him if he regarded himself as a pilot or a computer buff. He replied the latter!

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Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 Max 8 ?

Post by Plog » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:57 pm

Hal wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:45 am
Some years ago, before the flight deck doors are fortified and locked, I had a chance to go onto the flight deck en route India for a holiday. It was a BA aircraft with an array of screens so probably an A3xx.
.

Boeing have "done screens" for years and FWIW I’d say it is highly likely if it was a BA route to/from India pre-911 on an aircraft with screens then you were on a Boeing 747-400.

BA only went into Airbuses for Longhaul relatively recently with the A 380 and they have never used them for London-India route.
captain was my age and remebered with a smile flying with VORs as a norm. The f/o was in his thirties I guess. I remember asking him if he regarded himself as a pilot or a computer buff. He replied the latter!

Without getting too techy, but as a point of info: Despite comment about computers the F/O will in reality have been examined every 12 months as part of their Instrument Rating renewal on their ability to fly non-precision approaches using a VOR or NDB. Even nowadays with GPS and increasing numbers GPS coupled approaches being published the flying of approaches based on steam driven radio beacons :o is still in the recurrent training and checking syllabus. That's still a requirement to cater for instances when the GPS system accuracy becomes degraded (happens sometimes), GPS gets jammed locally by the bad guys ( that is going on at the moment around Eastern Turkey and the Eastern Med) or the GPS gets turned off by the operators... :shock:..... that hasn't happened yet...

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Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 Max 8 ?

Post by mysty » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:44 pm

Good news plog Trump has just announced that planes are too complicated now.
mysty1 the new up to date user friendly version for an enhanced user experience

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Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 Max 8 ?

Post by Hal » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:58 pm

Preliminary reports are emerging on the Ethiopian 737.

Apparantly the pilots were aware of the issue and repeatedly followed the recommended procedures but were unable to prevent the aircraft from nosediving. This fits in well with the graphs of the flight's take-off.

There is one thing Boeing not telling operators of any issues with anti-stall system, but quite another thing altogether in waiting as long as they did to ground the aircraft when it must have been quite obvious to the technical guys at Boeing that everything pointed at the software. Such is the power of commerce over lives.

Maybe more scary, it is now being said that US and EU regulators knew the 737 MAX8 had issues since its release to the world in 2017. Such is the power of politics over safety.

Meanwhile, the first lawsuit has been filed against Boeing this week. Maybe the first of 345 more. Such is the power of litigation over commerce.

What will not help Boeing in the rush of lawsuits is the revelation by a group of engineers with Boeing and FAA are on record saying that Boeing downplayed the anti-stall issue in order to bring the aircraft to market quicker - in other words, let's at least get some dollars in and see what happens... So it looks like they have just been waiting for something to happen.

Nearer to home, Ryanair are comitted to an order of these aircraft. Back to original question - would you fly on one now? I would be sceptical, but the cynic in me asks if it would be any different if it were an Airbus product..?

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Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 Max 8 ?

Post by Le Démerdeur » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:18 pm

I very much doubt it and the European legal system not having the class action claims and multi-million payouts like the US could even facilitate them to be worse than Boeing.

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Re: Would you fly on a Boeing 737 Max 8 ?

Post by FrenchForumSurvivor » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:29 pm

Hal wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:58 pm
Nearer to home, Ryanair are comitted to an order of these aircraft. Back to original question - would you fly on one now? I would be sceptical, but the cynic in me asks if it would be any different if it were an Airbus product..?
Plog will rightly correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Airbus have redesigned the physical shape of their aircraft in the same way as Boeing, so wouldn't have had to cope with the same problem that Boeing faced when they effectively repositioned the centre of gravity.
"I am a man of fixed and unbending principles, the first of which is to be flexible at all times." - Everett Dirksen

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